Verbal judo; know thy enemy; afterthoughts

[dzab]

Hey guys. Not much point to this post, just getting my thoughts out and hoping to generate some discussion.

Last night a mate and I caught the night rider home from the city. We sat near the front of the bus (on the seats for disabled people/pregnant ladies, which face inwards). A couple of meters away, closer to the doors of the bus there was 2 drunk "wannabe gangsta" types. People getting on and off the bus would have to step between them and they'd be aggressive to pretty much everyone, guys and girls included. At one stage one of them shouted "PEASANTS" and the whole bus fell silent. This made them feel very proud. They made multiple threats to people as well as challenging anyone to a fight. It was quite interesting to observe over the 45min bus ride. Gave me a greater insight into these muppets' mentality. They really have a "us versus them" type attitude.

At some stage someone at the back of the bus shouted "F A G" and they started getting even more agro, off course that person didn't actually come down to confront them.

Soon they turned their attention to me. One of them demanded my seat. I told him "normally I would, but I fcuked up my leg." He misheard what I said, thinking I said "I fcuked up Pleb," which was apparently one of his mates that got bashed in the club. I quickly cleared it up though and changed the topic..."What are you guys up to for the rest of the night?" My friend (trains in RBSD) joined in at this stage. They were kicked out of a club and now they were going to their friends to smoke pot. I'll add here that at the start of the trip I heard them say they were getting off at the same stop as us (the end of the line, most of the people would have already gotten off the bus, and we could easily become targets) so it was time to think tactically. Anyway, we asked them where we can get some good weed in the area (not that we actually smoke).

Long story short, we built pretty good rapport with them, and while they were still being obnoxious we stopped them being hostile to the rest of the people. A keep your enemies closer type of thing.

Now from a self defense perspective, I know we did the right thing. We avoided violence and a situation that could've escalated very easily if the wrong things were said. But here is what I've been thinking about, and what I would like to get your perspectives on:

I highly doubt most of the people had any idea of what my friend and I were doing. More likely than not, we would've been classed the same kind of low lives, as we talked about smoking weed, getting drunk, and getting into fights etc. with them (which was all BS).

We made pretty good “friends” with them, but it was excruciating. We started talking to them about 15min into the trip. During that 15mins I prayed that they'd get off or shut up. They were extremely irritating, and made me feel very uneasy. Do they deserve my friendship, or should I tell them how I feel and risk physical confrontation?

On that note, I have conflicting feelings. I am proud that I was able to prevent a situation. But should I jeopardise who I am as a person by lying and satisfying their ego? Is this my ego talking?

The way I see it, there is no solution. By making friends with them, and talking about the type of things they talk about, we are essentially encouraging them. By fighting them, we would be fueling the “us versus them” mentality.
More generally, do we as martial artists have a duty to protect others?

Do we have a responsibility to teach these kind of people a lesson? I'm not talking about being a vigilante, but these guys will get away with this kind of behavior again and again. Should we as martial artists draw a line in the sand and punish them if they cross it? Would there be any point in doing so? Also we have to keep in mind the ripple effect. If we had gotten into a fight, even for a worthy cause, what will happen next? Are they going to take it out on someone else the next day? Will this just perpetuate more violence? Will they want revenge in the future?

[kravmonsta]

any idiot can throw a punch. takes a clever man to do what you did. well done. you don't know if they where armed which these days is probably likely or had mates waiting at the stop so why risk it over there childish behaviour. if anything the bus driver should have been proative and either kicked them off or called the cops.
if they wanted to be tough they would have picked the bouncers who threw them out of club but we know they won't.just trying to save face. eventually they will cross someone who is more them capable and also be in a bad mood too and may tear it off...
FCUk duty of care. even if your right, your wrong these days. joe public see a big guy pounding a little smart ass and calls the cops. never mind the truth. news is full of dead good samaritans. sux but thats reality.
look after your own backyard. if they come into it, defend it to the end.i'll look after my family and mates 1st.
mind you animal cruelty and violence to women, elderly or disabled has been known to fire me up.

[magpie]

Hi dzab

Great thread mate and well handled.

Overall I think you handled the situation very well, if I had to score it out of 10 I think you would be 9.9/10, you kept a level head, controlled the situation by befriending the aggressors and subduing them on a psychological level, you and your mate controlled yourselves and had nerves of steel to be mingling in with these guys, the end result of no violence is what you wanted to achieve in the first place and where successful.

I think it would be fair to say that your RBSD training was well worth it and simply by avoiding violence has already paid itself of.

I wonder what your reactions may have been if you had not had RBSD under your belts?
What about the outcomes if you had of engaged them? It may have been life changing!

Well done to both of you.

About jeopardizing who you are as a person because you played their little game and came down to their level of intelligence to communicate to defuse the situation.

I don’t see anything wrong with that, although having to put up with it for 30 minutes would be a bit much BUT this is the type of skill RBSD is suppose to instill into its practitioners, whether it for 5 minutes or 30 minutes, in a real life situation I think you showed that side of your skills well, in such a prolonged psychological and verbal assault that had the potential to ignite into violence at anytime you kept your cool.

To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy with out fighting is the highest skill. Gichin Funakoshi

The correct understanding of Karate and its proper use is Karate-do. One who truly trains in this do [way] and actually understands Karate-do is never easily drawn into a fight. Gichin Funakoshi

What would have been the alternative?

If you had of gotten up and preemptively hit one of them and they fell and hit their head (being drugged and drunk) and let’s say they were in a comma this morning how would you be feeling then?

Like I said it’s a great example of RBSD training imo, like kravmonsta said any idiot can throw a punch.

I never took up martial arts to protect the general public and imo thinking that way is WRONG but that’s just me.

That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t get involved in an ugly situation that didn’t involve me, but it would really need to move me to get me in there if you know what I mean.

[kravmonsta]

i think magpie said it better then i did!

[glennb]

Dude nice post,

I think ur completely right and done a good thing ! id bet that u learnt more from that situation than being in a ring 10 times over ... although i do think ur a little to " Kind hearted " ! dont worry about other people ! they have a tongue, brain and their own fists. id imagine that they wouldnt worry about u if it turned ugly would they ? think someone would stop it ? as you said ppl on the train / bus didnt even confront them and thats just saying words. thats reality and the world today as old mate said look after your own backyard and if anyone breaks in destory them .

On that note, I have conflicting feelings. I am proud that I was able to prevent a situation. But should I jeopardise who I am as a person by lying and satisfying their ego? Is this my ego talking?

The way I see it, there is no solution. By making friends with them, and talking about the type of things they talk about, we are essentially encouraging them. By fighting them, we would be fueling the “us versus them” mentality.
More generally, do we as martial artists have a duty to protect others?

dude why do you practice martial arts ? ask yourself that ?

if its to protect others etc if so go be a police man . if its to protect yourself then maybe others should do the same so if fcuks like that hassle them they can deal with their own problems. as for duty of care you did your part. you didnt bounce their head off the fcuking window !ppl will look at that situation and say u did the right thing and what if about the law if u did do this etc

tell me in the heat of the moment did u think of the law when he asked u for ur seat ? id bet no .

if u hada been pissed off that night u think u woulda saved him fractured skull ? i doubt it. either way wat u did was the " BETTER " choice because theres no aftermath although if there was then its just part of life u no, we carnt predict wat happens and how we WOULD do things if a situation arises. if your in a fight and he pulls a knife and u take it off him and stabb him 10 times over and he dies ... meeehhh o well its life i guess, its against the law but at the time what happens happens get a good lawyer u might get a couple of years better than dieing right ? things happen in life that we carnt control and everyone must do what they must to live their own way . this whole TMA way of the dragon is BS and doesnt adapt to the real violent arse hole filled world, it will cost u DEARLY to be a caring kind hearted person people ! look after only yourself and the ppl u love. i can say if i was on that bus with my wife right next to you and got into a fight with them i wouldnt do anything but protect my wife. same applies to anything if i seen someone being bashed ill turn and walk the other way . i dont no what hes done to deserve it ? and i rightfully dont care . i have a life and loved ones i wanna get home to SAFE and SOUND. and im sure that the person getting flogged does too, although maybe he should learn to defend him self and think about hes actions before he starts judging ppl like myself.

anyway nice job dude

[yamaarashi]

Hey guys. Not much point to this post, just getting my thoughts out and hoping to generate some discussion.

I highly doubt most of the people had any idea of what my friend and I were doing. More likely than not, we would've been classed the same kind of low lives, as we talked about smoking weed, getting drunk, and getting into fights etc. with them (which was all BS).

We made pretty good “friends” with them, but it was excruciating. We started talking to them about 15min into the trip. During that 15mins I prayed that they'd get off or shut up. They were extremely irritating, and made me feel very uneasy. Do they deserve my friendship, or should I tell them how I feel and risk physical confrontation?

On that note, I have conflicting feelings. I am proud that I was able to prevent a situation. But should I jeopardise who I am as a person by lying and satisfying their ego? Is this my ego talking?

The way I see it, there is no solution. By making friends with them, and talking about the type of things they talk about, we are essentially encouraging them. By fighting them, we would be fueling the “us versus them” mentality.
More generally, do we as martial artists have a duty to protect others?

Do we have a responsibility to teach these kind of people a lesson? I'm not talking about being a vigilante, but these guys will get away with this kind of behavior again and again. Should we as martial artists draw a line in the sand and punish them if they cross it? Would there be any point in doing so? Also we have to keep in mind the ripple effect. If we had gotten into a fight, even for a worthy cause, what will happen next? Are they going to take it out on someone else the next day? Will this just perpetuate more violence? Will they want revenge in the future?

I think you are being far too idealistic in your assessment of the situation. You stopped both yourselves and other people on the bus from getting hurt, which was your primary goal. Does it really matter to you if those people thought that you were low lifes like them? It shouldn't. You should be satisfied that they all got to get off that bus without any problems.

I find it interesting when you say "should we as martial artists...". I think you somehow have us confused with jedi or possibly Batman. Being good at martial arts does not mean we have any sort of duty at all, it is something we do because we enjoy it, like anyone who plays golf or tennis. Yes, some of us have alot of passion for it and train relentlessly. However, this does not mean any of us can afford to act like some sort of gunslinger ie "drawing a line in the sand" as you put it. That sort of attitude or behaviour will wind up with you getting seriously hurt or worse the day that you bite off more than you can chew.

You did a fantastic job that everyone here has rightly commended you on. Be satisfied with that

[dzab]

In retrospect it does read a bit too romantically.
I've never considered training for the protection of others (outside family/friends) as that is up to LEO's. I raised that point as there were people that were being intimidated and bullied. These people were targets- weak guys that projected insecurity, and females. And tbh I felt pretty sorry for them, not being able to deal with that kind of stress.

[juggernaut]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

There seems to be a lot of people on the forum applauding the non intervention stance.
This raises the question, at what point do you intervene or take action?

What circumstances must exist for you guys as general members of the public to take some form of action.

I am not saying that what happened was wrong or right, I am merely interested in peoples views of what elements or actions would need to exist for them to become involved, as I get the opinion that some here seem to be of the opinion, if its not me or my direct family, I dont want to know.

One of the worst outcomes of our current lifestyles has IMO been the loss of a real community spirit, this is reflected in the lack of concern we have as a community for our fellow community members.

[magpie]

Hi Juggs

Your question is a valid one and one worthy of a thread of its own.

Personally its hard to say what and whatnot i would get myself involved in, you never know who is the bad guy or the good guy in any situation that you may happen upon, in the end they could be brothers who might just both turn on you if you intervene.

An example that i have used before, once when my father inlaw and i were putting up a picket fence around the corner came a young guy and girl about 20 years of age, the guy was cursing the girl and kicking her up the back side, we both weren't sure what to do until they got alittle closer and i could hear what the guy was saying.

He was accusing her of sleeping with another guy since she had gone out with this other guy the night before, obviously she was his girl friend, i told the father inlaw not to say anything when i heard these things, they walked past as though we weren't even there till they turned the corner, still ranting and raving and the occasional kick in the back side.

Should we have intervened?

A couple of days latter i saw them both at kmart all luvy duvy, who would have guessed?

I think if it involved oldies or children that would spark me up guaranteed.

But if i saw two guys going at it after turning the corner, i guess i would walk on by, not knowing who or what.

[truthseeker]

A number of years ago me and a group of friends were checking out a friends new hair dressing salon. While standing out the front a young kid of about 15 years old ran past. Twenty seconds later another 20 or so kids came after him. Without even thinking I just took off after them and was followed by 2 of my mates. We managed to put oursleves between the group and him and with only a little push and shove managed to convince the group to piss off. Fortunately it all worked out ok but I'd like to think I'd do it again

Cheers
Sam

[dzab]

yep Juggs, thats the kind of discussion I was going for, you just phrased it better. No need for a new thread.

[ffsguy]

The problem with getting involved in what looks to be a stoush between blokes in my neck of the woods is that weapons come into the play the way a headbutt might have about 20 years ago.
I remember walking along Ware st Fairfield about four years ago to grab some lunch and saw some nervous looking arabic blokes walking toward me looking over their shoulders followed by some not so nervous looking blokes wanting to "have a chat" with them.
The street was full of christmas shoppers and young kids.
They passed me and I thought no more of it till the yelling started and one of the first group was lying on the ground with a bloke standing over him with a bloody big knife.....thankfully prior to carving up his victim he realised how many eye witnesses there were and they all dispersed.
The police eventually turned up although the more aggressive group continued to hunt for members of the other mob for a while.
This incident was followed by a cafe being shot up along with a number of people with one being killed (an innocent bystander) so they were pretty serious.
The point being is that the country our parents grew up in is very different from the one we have now and getting involved isnt as simple as a decision as it once was.
Im not saying you shouldnt do it but your life could change forever if you do.

[Makiwara]

IMO it's a calculated risk.

The point being is that the country our parents grew up in is very different from the one we have now and getting involved isnt as simple as a decision as it once was.
Im not saying you shouldnt do it but your life could change forever if you do.

[glennb]

i think ffs guy hit the nail on the head . mind the world is different now, and ppl will take things to extremes over the smallest thing. if ur willing to help someone are u willing to fight for your life ? consider that next time u think of being a " good person ".

i carnt help but think of myself of the little of Chinese woman in the movies that when someones banging on the door for help she looks out the window and slowly closes the shutters lol, not caring about what happens in the world only with what concerns her.

for every action theirs a reaction, and if something " bad " is happening to somebody then its for a reason so think wisely before acting like chuck Norris and attempting to kick some arse because id bet 70 % of the time ud come off second best whether it be because of someone flogging their kid or hes wife or an old person. that leads me to another point just because their a senior citizen doesnt mean their above an arse woopen ! i firmly believe that. same goes with punk teenager kids. now im only 23 but be forked if some 14 year old is gunna try and pull s*** with me ill put him in hes place quick smart. even now theirs a "trend " with women my age, after a few drinks they seem to think they r equal to a man and think they can put a man down and abuse him in public and pritty much wanna fight a bloke . in my opinion if they get their skull cracked then so be it the man isnt the bad person for breaking her face , she wants to insight violence so thats what she'll get and thats not to say "oh shes a women did u really have to break her nose " lol come onnn people what is with this humanitarian do gooder attitude we are in 2010 not 1920 ! she thinks shes equal then ima fight her as if im fighting anyone else why she i take her lightly just because shes got a box ?

think of this .... theres a bump in the night u get outa bed to find 2 14 year old kids in your house sealing ur stuff one a boy one a girl with UR kitchen knife ! u telling me you would bounce them off every wall in ur house and possibly take that knife off her and pulge it into her tiny heart !

its 2010 im sure she'll pulge it into ur heart if given half the chance right ?

[Sor.NakSooMuayThai]

i think ffs guy hit the nail on the head . mind the world is different now, and ppl will take things to extremes over the smallest thing. if ur willing to help someone are u willing to fight for your life ? consider that next time u think of being a " good person ".

i carnt help but think of myself of the little of Chinese woman in the movies that when someones banging on the door for help she looks out the window and slowly closes the shutters lol, not caring about what happens in the world only with what concerns her.

for every action theirs a reaction, and if something " bad " is happening to somebody then its for a reason so think wisely before acting like chuck Norris and attempting to kick some arse because id bet 70 % of the time ud come off second best whether it be because of someone flogging their kid or hes wife or an old person. that leads me to another point just because their a senior citizen doesnt mean their above an arse woopen ! i firmly believe that. same goes with punk teenager kids. now im only 23 but be forked if some 14 year old is gunna try and pull s*** with me ill put him in hes place quick smart. even now theirs a "trend " with women my age, after a few drinks they seem to think they r equal to a man and think they can put a man down and abuse him in public and pritty much wanna fight a bloke . in my opinion if they get their skull cracked then so be it the man isnt the bad person for breaking her face , she wants to insight violence so thats what she'll get and thats not to say "oh shes a women did u really have to break her nose " lol come onnn people what is with this humanitarian do gooder attitude we are in 2010 not 1920 ! she thinks shes equal then ima fight her as if im fighting anyone else why she i take her lightly just because shes got a box ?

think of this .... theres a bump in the night u get outa bed to find 2 14 year old kids in your house sealing ur stuff one a boy one a girl with UR kitchen knife ! u telling me you would bounce them off every wall in ur house and possibly take that knife off her and pulge it into her tiny heart !

its 2010 im sure she'll pulge it into ur heart if given half the chance right ?

Whoa! Take a deep breath mate.

I also think the 'right' thing was done that evening. I have had encounters where I was naively thinking i was helping out a poor girl being harrassed, only to have her arc up at me for 'interferring.' It all comes down to judgement, and trying to maintain the 'middle way.' Help if the situation warrants, use force only if necessary. But Buddha help anyone who comes into my house illegally, or tries to help anyone while I am in the vicinity and no-one else will help.

We have a problem in Shepparton where I live with groups of little tossers calling themselves a gang. By themselves they are scared little boys, but in a group they are actually quite menacing. The problem is society is at the point where we have all been 'herded' in front of computer and television screens, and face-to-face social net-working has gone out the window. The more we are in touch with each other via telecommunications, the more we feel 'alone' and these sorts of low-lives flourish. Bring back Natioanl Service I say!