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Gordinho, how did you get started in Jiu-Jitsu and did you know immediately it would become a lifetime pursuit and passion?
I first got started because of my brother. I started training with my brother, who is like a father figure to me because I lost my father when I was seven years old. He is five years older than me so I always just followed what he did. I really didn’t think about it, it just became a lifestyle.
What was it like growing up among the Gracies? With Renzo being a really close friend, did it get really competitive?
It was very good experience growing up with the Gracie family. I would say one of reasons I started Jiu-Jitsu was because Gordo was very close to Ralph, and my older brother Renato was very close to Renzo, and I was very close to Reylan. We were all similar ages, so growing up with them was great. They had a lot of influence on my life; in particular, diet, obviously Jiu-Jitsu and my lifestyle. It was very competitive; we competed with each other at anything possible (laughs).
Do you recall any particular events or lessons from your teachers that were the turning points for you in your BJJ career?
There is one that I always like to mention. When I was a Purple-belt, I was playing half-guard all the time, lots of half-guard. I was winning a couple of tournaments and then I (surprisingly) lost two tournaments in a row. After this, Renzo came to me and said, “If you want to get better at this you have quit your half-guard; you’re already good at this, you aren’t going to evolve in Jiu-Jitsu if you keep going on with that half-guard thing…” I remember this closely, and it was a good turning point for me. The rest of the time it was just daily things at the academy — you know, teamwork and stuff like that.
Are there any major differences in the cultures of BJJ schools in Brazil, New York, and maybe even Australia?
Honestly, probably not. In BJJ schools the culture is pretty much the same judging from the places I have been. From what I’ve seen I think Brazilians have implemented the culture very well.
Why did you move to Singapore to teach?
It was a business opportunity. It was great opportunity to spread BJJ in South East Asia. It was growing already but there was still a very big demand, especially in Singapore, as there was no one there legitimately teaching Jiu-Jitsu before we got there.
Standing Guard-Pass to Arm-Bar
What is the BJJ/MMA scene like there? How is it going in SE Asia compared with the US?
It is growing a lot. I can’t really comment on the MMA but I believe the Jiu-Jitsu in five years time will be the best in South East Asia. The reason why is simple: the team we have there is just unbelievable. Just at one academy we have seven Black-belts all from Brazil, a couple of them world champions, national champions and stuff like that. It is definitely growing there.
Speaking of Black-belts, the method of grading and the belt system in BJJ as a whole has changed in recent years. Do you see the different grading systems around the world as consistent or do you think some Black-belts are achieved more easily than others?
I think it is very consistent. It is super hard to measure people and their skill when you have so many competitors at different ages. There are kids that are 18, I have some who are 65 and 67, so I think overall people are doing a good job.
You mentioned in your seminar that you should judge on the best a person can do and not judge oneself against others. For example, a 65-year-old shouldn’t look to judge himself against an 18-year-old.
That’s exactly how I think. Each individual person has their own potential and a good instructor will help them achieve the best they can on each specific belt.
So at Evolve, what methods of ranking and assessment do you use?
We use the same method as the IBJJF [International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation] with five different belts: white, blue, purple, brown and black. In between each of these belts there are four stripes. There are three main things I look at: consistency with training, technique and time on the mat.
Being in Singapore, did you find any sort of fusion with the existing judo community? Have you found any judo players who have been interested?
Not really, no. In Singapore right now sport is just starting to be unleashed; the government has just started pushing people do more sports. It was never a country that was sport-orientated like Australia.
The separation between sport and self-defence has become a big issue as BJJ has become so popular. Do you teach the sport side and self-defence side separately?
That’s a good question. The way I teach in our program is that self-defence Jiu-Jitsu is Blue-belt Jiu-Jitsu. It is a program that takes from White-belt to Blue-belt and takes approximately nine months to two years, depending on how consistent you are, how much you come… Pretty much all the stuff we talked about before. So, I would say someone that trains hard in following the curriculum we have will have that self-defence part done after two years, and then after that is when the sport part really comes in. I would say the Purple-belt program is a lot of the sport stuff. Yes, the two sides mix together really well, but in two years you should be able to perfect and understand the self-defence part. Not that you can’t get any better at it…
Many have called for changes in the rules of sport BJJ because of competitors stalling and trying to win points for position rather than trying to go for submissions. Understandably, some think that is quite boring. Do you think any changes are necessary for BJJ to get more coverage and grow as a combat sport?
I know your point, and I know it’s happening a lot. The thing is, the rules have been similar for a very long time. Athletes are always evolving. If you change the rules they will find a way around them. The way I teach Jiu-Jitsu and the way I learned Jiu-Jitsu, of course, was the normal ‘defend, control, finish’ mindset. But the bottom line is, you must teach people how to finish [submit the opponent]. You should always be going for a finish when fighting. Honestly, the fighters these days, even if they are world champions, who are winning these tournaments with one advantage point or two points, I have no respect for — zero. I don’t think there are rule changes that need to take place. I just think instructors need to implement a good culture and mentality that Jiu-Jitsu should be to ‘finish’ not to ‘win points’.
How would you describe you own Jiu-Jitsu style? You mentioned that you are always looking for the finish.
I’m always thinking of defending myself first. Basically, when I’m training with someone, most of the time I just pull guard to get a feel for my opponent. If you’re against someone really aggressive, just let them tire themselves out. Once this happens, then you can start going for the control and finish.
Who has been your toughest opponent and which victory was your most satisfying?
I have had a few toughest opponents. You know I’ve fought Saulo [Ribeiro], Margarida [Pontes] and Jacare [De Souza], and they are all very tough, so I can’t really say one. I think they are perhaps the best I have fought. My most satisfying victory was definitely my World Championship, the last one [1998]. I would say that, tournament-wise, it was my biggest accomplishment, definitely.
You’ve been named ‘The Most Technical Fighter’ at the Mundials (IBJJF World Championships). In your experience, how much does success in BJJ rely on technique compared to the mental side; things like heart, determination, mental toughness, etc?
To be a world champion you obviously need the technique, but if you don’t have the heart of a champion, you can’t make it. I would say it’s a bit of talent and lots of hard work.
If a student of yours seems to have hit a plateau in their game, what tips would you give to help them push through it?
Most of the time, from my experience, it’s always down to motivation. Honestly, if you have a good team you must always be evolving and getting better somehow. If someone is hitting a plateau they need to be motivated. Again, it takes a good instructor to finds ways to motivate that student.
If you had to pick three exercises outside of training for BJJ for conditioning, what would you choose?
I like hiking. Hiking is very good as it works your legs and of course your cardio. I also like swimming. Climbing is also very good. I think I would probably recommend those three.
Going into a tournament, how do you remove the elements of doubt and fear? How do you maintain that winning mindset?
Every time you go into a competition, you have to remind yourself that you are well prepared. If for some reason that mindset isn’t there — for example, you have an injury or whatever — these times tend to be harder. Just try remembering the good times and believing no one can beat you (laughs).
You mentioned injury; what is the worst one you’ve ever had yourself?
I’ve never really had a major one. Now at 34, last year I was training with a White-belt and tore my meniscus. That is probably the worst one.
It always happens against the White-belts, doesn’t it?
Yes! (Laughs)
For readers of the magazine who can’t get to a BJJ gym, do you have any suggestions for how they can improve their ground skills?
If you can’t find a BJJ school, find a partner. Go in your garage, put some mats down, sometimes you can even roll on the carpet. Even though I am not a huge fan of DVDs, watch them as they are probably the next best thing. But do try and get down to a BJJ school!
Thank you very much, Gordinho. I hope you enjoyed your trip to Australia.
Of course, thank you.
The Gordinho File
Widely regarded as one of the most technical Black-belts from Gracie Barra, Brazil, Rafael ‘Gordinho’ Correa de Lima holds a 3rd Degree Black-belt under Carlos Gracie Jr.
He has more than 25 years of experience in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and has fought in hundreds of BJJ bouts. He is a Mundials BJJ Black-belt World Champion (1998) and has five times been National Champion of Brazil, where he was voted the most technical fighter and also had the fastest submission (12 seconds). He was also a runner-up in ADCC (no-gi submission grappling) Brazil and has competed and won in numerous other tournaments around the world.
Today, Gordinho is responsible for the course curriculum of the Renzo Gracie Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Program at Evolve Mixed Martial Arts in Singapore, and is head coach of the official Evolve Fight Team. Before Evolve, Gordinho also trained, helped, and coached many professional MMA fighters in the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) and the IFL (International Fight League), including Renzo Gracie, Georges St-Pierre, Roger Gracie, Renato ‘Babalu’ Sobral, Matt Serra and others.
Gordinho has taught BJJ for many years in Brazil and the US. Prior to Evolve, he was the most senior Black-belt instructor (after Renzo Gracie) and program director at the Renzo Gracie Academy in New York, which is the largest BJJ school in the world with over 1200 students in a single location.
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