Kata for primary school and kindergarden

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Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby magpie » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:32 pm

Chris Gillies wrote:
While I think that shotokan kata are quite removed from the original forms and often from reality.

After reading my post, I thought I ought to clarify that I have nothing against shotokan kata, my views are above are purely my own opinions on the result of shotokan spearheading the Japanisation of karate and the morphing of the art from a system of civil self defence into a physical exercise and sport for children.
(taken from here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17128)


Hi Chris

While history tells us that Itosu developed the heian kata for school children or to introduce karate into the educational system of Japan, i dont think the rest of the shotokan syllabus was watered down, edited or whatever, some things were changed for the better in my opinion.

So to make such an out right statement i think is plain wrong.

BTW the heian kata as practiced in shotokan today, even if they maybe the watered down version, i would say that the heians offer just as much in terms of bunkai, oyo and henka as any of the other traditional kata going around, that includes okinawan systems as well imo.

Is the shotokan version that far removed from the rest?

Pinan Nidan (Heian shodan) - okinawan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csg3qL7rYuQ

Heian shodan (pinan nidan) - japanese
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJQJhMrhWyA

Pinan shodan (Heian nidan) - okinawan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnQ7uc_H7tc

Heian Nidan (Pinan shodan) - japanese
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK2ukjHvSD0

Pinan sandan - okinawan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ulfdFXmck

Heian sandan - japanese
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhsTigmV9W0

Pinan yondan - okinawan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmLQq_q_YMg

Heian Yondan - japanese
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhsTigmV9W0

Pinan Godan - okinawan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koTmCBL7-cU

Heian Godan - japanese
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7iC_Nev70k

Tekki shodan - shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBI8JUz1Jj4

Wado Ryu Kata Naihanchi - Sensei Mick Bayliss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQZcCAOseVg

sh!toryu naihanchi shodan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGk8e5ZlaFg

Matsubayashi Ryu - Naihanchi Shodan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk91kI_76jU

Would you care to expand on your theory?
Last edited by magpie on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby Terry » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:48 pm

So to make such an out right statement i think is plain wrong or just ingnorant of the facts.


I concur Magpie, please do some basic history research then get back to us.

edit: to make myself clear I am talking to magpie, please do some basic research on "Japan" and "Okinawa"

then look at "karate"

then look at how "karate" came to "Japan" from "Okinawa"

then....ah well why bother

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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby baihe » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:57 pm

I concur too Magpie. It seems to me that a great deal of the aspects touted in traditional Karate have arisen from modern views. Let's be honest, if it was not for the likes of Dillman (unfortunately) then most Karateka would not have had any real grasp of Bunkai in the Western world and even a great deal in Okinawa as well.

The trend of Bunkai as applied to Karate Kata (largely a modern occurrence) can and has been applied equally to Shotokan Karate, Goju-Kai as well as the Okinawan entities of Karate.
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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby magpie » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:17 pm

Dillman?

I think they were practicing bunkai on Okinawa before Dillman was born dude.

For shotokan yeah i agree bunkai as we know it today is a new thing, like say less than a 50 or 60 years old.

Hi Terry

Dude i'm not a historian but i've done my home work thanks. :wink:
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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby baihe » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:40 pm

Yeah Magpie that's right, but if it were not for the likes of Dillman, Oyata etc most modern day Karateka would not know too much about Bunkai, anatomical weaknesses, pressure points etc. Be it if you like it or not, Dillman popularised the concept and bought to the front of many Karateka's understanding and application of Kata.

Look back through the popular media up until Dillman's time and you will see very little mention of Bunkai or it's application so yes it did exist long before this but it was not at the forefront of Karate instruction.
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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby magpie » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:50 pm

baihe wrote:Yeah Magpie that's right, but if it were not for the likes of Dillman, Oyata etc most modern day Karateka would not know too much about Bunkai, anatomical weaknesses, pressure points etc. Be it if you like it or not, Dillman popularised the concept and bought to the front of many Karateka's understanding and application of Kata.

Look back through the popular media up until Dillman's time and you will see very little mention of Bunkai or it's application so yes it did exist long before this but it was not at the forefront of Karate instruction.


Hi Ron

Hey dude Dillman may have influenced you, but he didn't influenced traditional karate as a whole all over the world, the karate i practice you have to get close to hit someone which means they can also hit you.

I've never seen traditional karateka knocking people out from across the room with internal chi or a kiah. :wink:
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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby baihe » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:30 pm

Magpie, more of that Charlie Sheen thinking brother!

I never said I was influenced by Dillman. Quite the opposite. But that's neither here no there.

All I am stating is that if one is truthful (a rarity nowadays) then they will admit that the likes of Dillman had bought the concepts and practice of Bunkai and related aspects to the forefront in most modern day Karateka's minds. I'm not advocating his way as being right because I don't think it is.

And you speak of Bunkai on Okinawa ... how do you know this to be true Magpie? What Okinawan Martial Arts have you practiced and learned? Who on Okinawa did you train with to make such a statement? I though you were a Shotokan stylist, well at least a fan? Correct me if I'm wrong but Shotokan is largely a Japanese embodiment of Karate is it not?

Do you believe in the practice of Shotokan as per Funakoshi Gichin or that which came afterward and spread to the Western world (Long stances, looks over function etc)??? That taught and started by Master Funakoshi's third son, Yoshitaka (or Giko)? Not to mention Masatoshi Nakayama, Isao Obata, and Hidetaka Nishiyama who had never studied with Yoshitaka.

What of Genshin Hironishi and Shigeru Egamai (Shotokai), What of their Karate?

The great Hidetaka Nishiyama recalled that many of the seniors had forgotten their kata and often had to get together to pool their knowledge. But, through the efforts of people such as Genshin Hironishi the various Shotokan groups were brought together and in 1949 or '50 the Japan Karate Association was founded.

Lastly Magpie, how much actual practice do you put into your personal Bunkai understanding and development? As I understood it, you don't actually train do you?
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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby magpie » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:53 pm

baihe wrote:Magpie, more of that Charlie Sheen thinking brother!

I never said I was influenced by Dillman. Quite the opposite. But that's neither here no there.

All I am stating is that if one is truthful (a rarity nowadays) then they will admit that the likes of Dillman had bought the concepts and practice of Bunkai and related aspects to the forefront in most modern day Karateka's minds. I'm not advocating his way as being right because I don't think it is.


Dont agree, Dillman teaches knocking people out by using pressure points, internal energy and even stopping kicks with a kiah, this is not bunkai.

Ron wrote;
And you speak of Bunkai on Okinawa ... how do you know this to be true Magpie? What Okinawan Martial Arts have you practiced and learned? Who on Okinawa did you train with to make such a statement? I though you were a Shotokan stylist, well at least a fan? Correct me if I'm wrong but Shotokan is largely a Japanese embodiment of Karate is it not?


Well dude it is the 21st century and we do communicate with lots of different people over the internet, NO i haven't practiced okinawan karate, BUT yes i have talked to lots of people that have, all okinawan karateka tell me that bunkai existed in their art from the begining.

Do you believe in the practice of Shotokan as per Funakoshi Gichin or that which came afterward and spread to the Western world (Long stances, looks over function etc)??? That taught and started by Master Funakoshi's third son, Yoshitaka (or Giko)? Not to mention Masatoshi Nakayama, Isao Obata, and Hidetaka Nishiyama who had never studied with Yoshitaka.


The JKA style of shotokan karate which has Funakoshi as the master, and Nakayama as the innovator.

Ron wrote:
What of Genshin Hironishi and Shigeru Egamai (Shotokai), What of their Karate?


Dont know dont care, I dont like shotokai at all, shotokan and shotokai may have come from the same background but they are like chalk and cheese to me, totally different in everything.

Ron wrote;
The great Hidetaka Nishiyama recalled that many of the seniors had forgotten their kata and often had to get together to pool their knowledge. But, through the efforts of people such as Genshin Hironishi the various Shotokan groups were brought together and in 1949 or '50 the Japan Karate Association was founded.


Now you are talking CRAP CRAP CRAP not worth the effort.

Ron wrote:
Lastly Magpie, how much actual practice do you put into your personal Bunkai understanding and development? As I understood it, you don't actually train do you?


Even if i was i wouldn't tell you MAN, cause your nothing but a sh!t stirrer.
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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby truthseeker » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:09 pm

magpie wrote:
Dont agree, Dillman teaches knocking people out by using pressure points, internal energy and even stopping kicks with a kiah, this is not bunkai.



Even if i was i wouldn't tell you MAN, cause your nothing but a sh!t stirrer.


Yes but Dillman uses the exact movements of kata to strike those points in sequence so as to effect the KO. Regardless of whether it works or not doesn't matter but it is bunkai. I am sure you have mentioned pressure points within the kata bunkai before Magpie. Perhaps the Okinawan katas do have such movements but they don't intellectualise it like Dillman did so he could market it to a gullible public and continued that with the kiai and no touch sh!t. The Okinawans follow the kata and hit where they hit. Also the fact is that Shotokan isn't some ancient art with secret bunkai, it is as Chris said it is. You don't train either as I am sure if you had started you would announce it here.

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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby magpie » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:32 pm

truthseeker wrote:
magpie wrote:
Dont agree, Dillman teaches knocking people out by using pressure points, internal energy and even stopping kicks with a kiah, this is not bunkai.



Even if i was i wouldn't tell you MAN, cause your nothing but a sh!t stirrer.


Yes but Dillman uses the exact movements of kata to strike those points in sequence so as to effect the KO. Regardless of whether it works or not doesn't matter but it is bunkai. I am sure you have mentioned pressure points within the kata bunkai before Magpie. Perhaps the Okinawan katas do have such movements but they don't intellectualise it like Dillman did so he could market it to a gullible public and continued that with the kiai and no touch sh!t. The Okinawans follow the kata and hit where they hit. Also the fact is that Shotokan isn't some ancient art with secret bunkai, it is as Chris said it is. You don't train either as I am sure if you had started you would announce it here.

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Hi Sam

I'm not saying that kata doesn't make use of pressure points, all traditional karate has strikes to pressure points, but they dont make the rediculus claims that George Dillman preaches.

I like this guys bunkai even though its not pure traditional karate, you have said in the past that he is from a George Dillman Lineage which i couldn't find on his web site, it simply says he practices RyuKyu Kempo which is suppose to be okinawan karate.

In anycase his material doesn't look like anything i have seen George Dillman do on utube.

Keith Foskey - bunkai heian nidan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmgzFk4Vivs

Never said shotokan is an ancient art with secret bunkai.

I would like to hear from Chris as to why he has this opinion of shotokan kata.

Training is my affair whether i train or not is no bodies business and NO i wouldn't announce it after all the malarkey thats been going on here on whether i train or not.
Last edited by magpie on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby truthseeker » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:44 pm

Dude it is exactly like Dillmans BS. Also I can tell you where he says he touches his arm in the kata to show where he is to hit his opponent is garbage. Also Ryukyu Kempo is the name Oyata used originally for the art he taught to the general public. When Dillman came on the scene and starting spouting his crap using the name Ryukyu Kempo Oyata changed his art forms name to Ryu Te. It isn't Okinawan Karate and Dillmans books are called the Dilman method of pressure point fighting. It is not Okinawan it just has a loose base there. That guy has a blackbelt in eating!!

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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby ChrisGillies » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:58 pm

First of all, though I acknowledge it may read that way, I did not intend any disrespect for Shotokan, its kata, or its participants, including Magpie. The reason I used Shotokan is because it a highly recognisable system that has had a large influence on karate in general since its arrival on the Japanese mainland. I love the physicality of Shotokan kata, but to `know` anything, it is important to recognise its strengths and weaknesses.

For the record, I resent the `ignorant` comment. The history of karate is clouded in lies, mistruths, distortion and marketing. Very few people have a clear understanding of the development, (or devolution) of karate. For my part, I am not an expert in karate or in karate history. However, I have been studying several styles of karate for more than 25 years, including approximately 7 years of training in Japan including in s*** with Sadaharu Fujimoto, Kyokushin at the Honbu, occasionally Goju with well-known karate historian Joe Swift and recently in Okinawa at the Jundokan. I currently teach Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo Jutsu-based karate in Tokyo. I have also studied many other systems and have dan grades in several.

As for history, I have a degree in International Studies, in which Asian history was a large part. Japanese history and martial arts are two of my great passions, in which I invest a lot of time reading about in English, Japanese and occasionally Chinese. This linguistic ability opens up sources of information inaccessible to many martial artists in Australia. I work at the Australian Embassy in Tokyo and I am a member of the International Ryukyu Karate Jutsu Research Society. While I am no expert, I think I deserve a little credit. The following is my understanding, although I cannot guarantee the accuracy of all my statements.


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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby ChrisGillies » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:58 pm

I don’t necessary believe Shotokan as a style has been watered down, I believe karate in general has been sanitised. The Japanisation of karate began before Funakoshi ever laid foot on the mainland. Okinawa was incorporated into Japan formally in the early Meiji Restoration period in the 1868. It became a prefecture in 1879 and was a source of soldiers. The physicality of some of these soldiers, like Yabu Kentsu, sparked an interest in the possible benefits of Okinawan martial art training for the Japanese military.

Itosu in his 1908 10 lessons of karate quoted the Duke of Wellington saying that the battle against Napoleon had been won in the playgrounds of elementary schools. He used these 10 lessons in his attempt to introduce karate to mainstream education in Okinawa. In order to do so, he is believed to have either created or amended the pinan (Heian) kata for this purpose. In order to be accepted for schools, a safe, easily learned form of the art needed to be created. Karate teachers had to be produced quickly. Two person drills involve risk of injury. Therefore, easy, single person kata without the `killing` techniques were taught. Therefore, I believe the dilution of the art now known as karate began before reaching Japan.

Funakoshi went through a similar process a couple of decades later in Japan. Again he needed to produce instructors quickly. The focus was on building physical fitness, conditioning and toughness to create a pool of potential soldiers. His teachings had to be amended to meet this demand. I believe this is why Shotokan stances are cumbersomely long, wide and deep. Incidentally I have found that these stances are often used in BJJ and other grappling styles, but rarely applicable in striking arts.

In order to be accepted by the Dainippon Butokukai, karate had to conform with Japanese order and values. A uniform, grading system, and importantly sporting format, had to be installed. Even more importantly, Judo had already been allocated grappling, and arts such as Kendo covered the weaponry component of the martial arts. To avoid overlap, karate competition was limited to striking. From memory I believe these changes happened in or around 1933. Karate was therein stripped of its depth of knowledge as a complete martial art and became a hitting sport. The remnants of the original form remained hidden in kata, but was rarely taught or understood, even by teachers, who as previously mentioned, often had limited tuition themselves.

These changes were not limited to the mainland. There was a reverse trend of Japanese karate to Okinawa. In my recent trip, a quick scan of the telephone book revealed more Kyokushin dojo than Goju or other Okinawan styles. My enquiries before visiting Okinawa were frustrating. I was told that that many dojo in Okinawa have fallen so far from the tree that I was better off visiting a university MMA club for some good training. I was pleasantly surprised to find that in the Jundokan they continue to study applications for the kata they practice. They also focus on fight conditioning (rather than general fitness) and two person drills.

Anyway, I think I have given this thread all the attention it deserves. I apologise for any offense, but let`s call a spade a spade. Otherwise students will find themselves digging for decades with the wrong garden tools.
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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby ffsguy » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:31 am

very informative Chris and explains why so many people go into karate expecting to be taught the real deal but end up learning a sport or at best, a superficial representation of the art.
This could explain why so many Japanese instructors give the instruction to mindlessly repeat technique over and over when asked to explain a point rather than answer the students questions.
Examples of this can be found in most accounts given by western students after training in Japan.
"Dont think...just do".
This could also explain much of the initial hostility toward Bruce Lee when he challenged this school of thought.
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Re: Kata for primary school and kindergarden

Postby Terry » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:40 am

Hey Chris,

That's pretty close to my understanding of it.

What should be noted especially is the long trend in far eastern countries to mimick the European and American education and martial disciplines. Whilst person in Australia in the 70's & 80's were desperate to learn the mysteries of karate and Kung Fu the peoples of those countless of origin were desperately trying to modernize themselves with a basis in pragmatism (this process had been on going for along time before that though).

I can see how Mma or shooto would easily eclipse the other imported styles like karate in japan in the active adult population soon if they don't already.

Cheers,

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